DIALOGUES page 1
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Opening post: Doug 04.25.06 0.1 (1)
Life: a reaction to the void
Although we don't think of our lives in this way, I suggest they are reactions to the void. I see the void being simply what we discover when we question the meaning of life, ask the question I call "the last why". The missing answer cannot be a force that acts on us; but I suggest merely being aware of the void causes us to react. If we haven't already, we will get a sense that life is this reaction to the void when part of an 'inheritance' we probably didn't even know seemed to be giving meaning to our life, is removed and we experience the emptiness most often referred to as the void. Once its effect is felt, we don't take long reacting to the void.
We can think of our reactions to the void as weaving fabrics of existence with 'threads' of activity. There are only two types. Natural activity is reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Its consequence is self-realization. Unnatural activity is trying to fill the void. There are eight ways we can try to fill the void and the consequence of each is self-destruction. (see poem)
We weave our fabrics of existence according to the law of human nature which has only two stipulations. First, we must be using some natural 'thread' or we will cease to exist. The law also stipulates there is a limit on the amount of 'thread' we can use. Thus, when we are at our limit, if we wish to add more unnatural 'thread' to our fabric, we must displace an equivalent amount of 'natural' thread. Conversely, if we wish to add natural 'thread', it must replace that amount of unnatural 'thread'. Within the unnatural component we can use any amount and any number of the unnatural 'threads'. Depending on the ratio of natural to unnatural 'thread' we choose to use in our weave, our fabric of existence is either dominantly self-realization or self-destruction.
Though we each weave a fabric of existence they have no boundaries. They weave together to form humanity's fabric of existence. We become part of this fabric the moment we are conceived. When we die naturally we fall away from the edge. When we die unnaturally we leave a hole in it. We are influenced and restricted by the fabric of humanity; but at the same time we can change it and the restrictions by changing our individual fabrics.
To 'see' the fabric of humanity, imagine the 'threads' of unnatural activity are different colours and the 'thread' of natural activity is clear. At present the fabric is a mess of clashing colours. We can see through it quite easily but only where there are holes. If we continue to weave with our present mix of 'threads' the fabric of humanity will self-destruct and God will not save it. Nor can any of us alone prevent self-destruction; but together we can. By reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God, the ideal reaction to the void, we can create a flawless fabric of existence through which we may see "God's Glory".
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Nick_A 04.26.06 1.1 (1)
Hi Doug
| Doug wrote: |
| We can think of our reactions to the void as weaving fabrics of existence with 'threads' of activity. There are only two types. Natural activity is reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Its consequence is self-realization. Unnatural activity is trying to fill the void. There are eight ways we can try to fill the void and the consequence of each is self-destruction. |
I've come to accept that there are three ways to deal with the void. The third begins when we come to realize that as we are we cannot be natural. Instead of filling the void, the idea becomes keeping it open for the Holy spirit to help as "grace". The idea here is not being concerned with "doing" this or that but with imagination. A classic from Simone Weil:
| Nick wrote: |
"Grace fills empty spaces, but it can only enter where there is a void to receive it We must continually suspend the work of the imagination in filling the void within ourselves." "In no matter what circumstances, if the imagination is stopped from pouring itself out, we have a void (the poor in spirit). In no matter what circumstances... imagination can fill the void. This is why the average human beings can become prisoners, slaves, prostitutes, and pass thru no matter what suffering without being purified." "That is why we fly from the inner void, since God might steal into it. It is not the pursuit of pleasure and the aversion for effort which causes sin, but fear of God. We know that we cannot see him face to face without dying, and we do not want to die." -- Gravity and Grace |
This is the trouble. Our lives are lived in imagination and this imagination is our life. It is no wonder then that we would psychologically fear its death because this imagination for all extents and purposes is us. It requires great bravery to face death. To do it requires a great need for the experience of truth beyond the satisfactions from imagination..
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Satyr 04.26.06 2.1 (1)
Life is the void becoming animated towards its own possibilities.
Consciousness is the void becoming more efficient in its search for self-realization.
Universal flux is blind self-realization. Evolution is sighted or sensual self-realization; it is self-realization in sight of its own possibilities.
As such evolution is the universal flux becoming more sophisticated in its search for completion; it is, in essence, life seeking out, and hoping for, its own end.
Self-consciousness is the void becoming aware of itself; it is an incompleteness looking back on itself by creating a false sense of separation between observed and observer (consciousness/self-consciousness).
This distance or distinction or differentiation is a natural product of consciousness; consciousness is distance – ergo space/time is a measurement of distance, produced by consciousness; it is a distance from its own self-realization.
The void, or nothingness, is freedom by another name. The emptiness, the absence of completeness and of self-realization, is the endless possibility of self manifesting itself towards a conscious being that lacks it, through infinite possibilities.
It is obvious that self-consciousness might be beneficial to a unity, in its earlier stages, as a means of focusing energies through judgment and awareness, but it results in a nihilistic pessimism in its higher forms, which either lead to self-destruction or to a joyous indifference, caused by acceptance or a resignation towards the unknown and unknowable.
_____________con'd @ 2.2
Doug 04.26.06 2.2 (1)
Satyr,
I have spent my entire life avoiding esoteric language. I wanted to communicate my ideas with words devoid of complex connotation. I hope I have succeeded. I suspect that if you wrote to me at my level we would share many common thoughts; but I am afraid most of what you did write went over my head. If your post conveyed the meaning in your signature I would say we definitely agree. I would just expand it slightly and say, reach out to the limits of your capacities, to others and to God and thus "know thyself".
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faust 04.26.06 3.1 (1)
Hi, kids. What is this? What is this I am reading? Does anyone know? Is this New Age? Or the plot of some sci-fi movie? Please don't misread my tone. It's just that three of you seem to know what each other is talking about. Is this a movement? Or just a club on this board? I'm new here.
_____________con'd @ 3.2
Doug 04.26.06 3.2 (1)
| faust wrote: |
| It's just that three of you seem to know what each other is talking about. |
I hope you don't mind me editing your posts. What came before and after the quote diminished its brilliance somewhat. By your tone I would guess we are possibly 2 generations apart so "kids" is not appropriate, nor is gramps. I only know Nick by his reputation and it is that of a serious thinker. I am guessing by his reaction to your entrance, Satyr is as well. I have been thinking seriously about life for 40 years. So unless you hear otherwise, assume we are having a serious discussion. Join in if you like but edit your comments so only the brilliance shows .
_____________con'd @ 3.3
faust 04.26.06 3.3 (1)
Ah, how dangerous assumptions can be! I assumed that you all must be very young. You have answered my questions in part. I guess I can extrapolate that this is not a cult. Sorry for the interruption. Ciao.
_____________con'd @ 3.4
Doug 04.26.06 3.4 (1)
Don't stay away.
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Doug 04.26.06 1.2 (1)
| Nick wrote: |
| I've come to accept that there are three ways to deal with the void. |
What are you trying to do to me Nick? Are you coming back to tell me the other two or are you just going to leave me hanging . In all seriousness, I also suggest 3 reactions to the void. I put them at the ends and middle of a continuum. At one end is the absolutely restrictive reaction of unnatural activity. At the other end is the absolutely permissive reaction of unnatural inactivity that simply allows the weave to unravel. Right at the mid point between these two is the ideal reaction of natural activity. Between the three are reactions that are blends of them. I suggest our present activities are dominated by the unnatural and since they are, we cannot as you say, "be(completely) natural".
Instead of filling the void, the idea becomes keeping it open for the Holy spirit
I don't specifically say keep the void open for the Holy spirit but in "The Void" I do say "we are not to fill the void...": and in my poem is the line:
"A sensitivity we need to God's spirit..."
So far I'd say we are pretty close but at this point Simone causes a temporary divergence. I suggest we experience real life with the natural activity of the ideal reaction to the void. As we move away from the ideal, life becomes less real, more imaginary and trying to fill the void with the imaginary is self-destructive. You bring us back together again perhaps unintentionally with
Nick wrote:
This is the trouble. Our lives are lived in imagination and this imagination is our life. It is no wonder then that we would psychologically fear its death because this imagination for all extents and purposes is us.
I suggest living at the variously less real end of the continuum is commensurately meaningless and the more meaningless our lives are, the more we fear death. However, as we move toward the ideal the more meaningful our lives become and the less we fear death. Nick, we may not be using the same dialect but it sure sounds like we are speaking the same language.
Kriswest asked us to reconcile individual with humanity. I told her this post would. She hasn't gotten back to me. What are your thoughts?
_____________con'd @ 1.3
Tabula Rasa 4.26.06 4.1 (1)
| Satyr wrote: |
| It is obvious that self-consciousness might be beneficial to a unity, in its earlier stages, as a means of focusing energies through judgment and awareness, but it results in a nihilistic pessimism in its higher forms, which either lead to self-destruction or to a joyous indifference, caused by acceptance or a resignation towards the unknown and unknowable. Satyr |
I'd agree with that - I've lived it here in the last year or so, seen everything I believed as black and white and done and dusted collapse like so many playing cards. I think if there is a void we self-create it, rationally. Perhaps the challenge then, is to fill the hole we dig in ourselves through (?over?) contemplation, with a belief system equally wholly of our own making. A belief of something in spite of ourselves.
The one-size-fits-all thing don't work no more.
_______________con'd @ 4.2
Doug 4.26.06 4.2 (1)
Tabula Rasa wrote:
I think if there is a void we self-create it, rationally. Perhaps the challenge then, is to fill the hole we dig in ourselves through (?over?) contemplation, with a belief system equally wholly of our own making.
We are sort of together. Again I suggest when we ask the last why we discover the void. I still maintain trying to fill it is self-destructive and the more we try the bigger the hole seems to get because it can't be filled. In that way we definitely dig the hole deeper and bigger ourselves.
Tabula Rasa wrote:
The one-size-fits-all thing don't work no more.
Not entirely true. The void is, for all of us. There is an ideal reaction to the void that is the same for all of us, the consequence of which is self-realization, the same for all of us. If we choose less than the ideal then you are right. We can try to fill the void any way we want; but the consequence, self-destruction, is the same for all of us.
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Nick_A 04.26.06 1.3 (1)
Hi Doug.
No, not trying to leave you hanging 
but only suggesting something additional.
| Doug wrote: |
At one end is the absolutely restrictive reaction of unnatural activity. At the other end is the absolutely permissive reaction of unnatural inactivity that only unravels the weave. Right at the mid point between these two is the ideal reaction of natural activity. Between the three are reactions that are blends of them. I suggest our present activities are dominated by the unnatural and since they are, we cannot as you say, "be(completely) natural". The additional alternative I'm adding is not reaction but conscious action. |
| Doug wrote: |
as we move toward the ideal the more meaningful our lives become and the less we fear death. Nick, we may not be using the same dialect but it sure sounds like we are speaking the same language. Could you give me an example of what you mean by "more meaningful. How do you discriminate between meaningless and meaningful? Doug wrote: |
Nick wrote: |
"There is an Eastern tale that speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where the sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines and so on, and above all, they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and their skins, and this they did not like. "At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them, first of all, that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned; that on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place, he suggested that if anything at all were going to happen to them, it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further, the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to some that they were eagles, to some that they were men, to others that they were magicians. "After this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again, but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.. |
This same idea is in the essence of Plato's Cave, the parable of the burning house in Buddhism, and the change of mind referered to as "metanoia" poorly translated as repentance in Christianity
The idea is that the individuality asserted to at these levels are secondary to the idea that we are all sheep. One may think themselves as an individual because they are recognized as doctors, lawyers, teachers, artists, and the like and in how they present themselves within society but as sheep lacking consciousness, we lack human individuality in contrast to culturally defined individuality.
It is the black sheep that begins to see this and naturally annoys everyone else content with the status quo. The movement towards individuality is the psychological movement towards consciousness and more specifically consciousness of self leading to "know thyself." In the process, true individuality is the development of what exists in us now as rudimentary qualities. The spiritual qualities of faith, love, and hope, can serve as examples. They exist in us in a rudimentary form. Our love is created in us. Faith and hope are resticted to being IN something and not as developed active qualities within ourselves that are not just being created in us through external influences. At our level they are rudimentary qualities that would be mature in a real individual. It is not something we can understand now. So true individuality is the change of being at which we become our "being" potential.
quote:
Nothing can have as its destination anything other than its origin. The contrary idea, the idea of progress, is poison. Simone Weil
True Individuality is the return to our origin.
_______________con'd @ 1.4
Trevor_W 04.26.06 5.1 (1)
life= sum of our experiances
our experiances are what make up our lifes progress. during these experiances we form beliefs, aspirations. all of human motive comes from our beliefs and aspirations. if i aspire to become a professional hockey player and its my lifes goal, i know theres an extremely minute chance that i will ever realize this goal. the key to having a good life is setting achivable goals, following through, and succeeding. its easier to fail than succeed. so life takes work. i'm no seamstress, lifes no quilt/
life is the progress from birth to death. i give my life meaning by valuing certain things more than others. near the top of my list is success. though its not the only motive. others are pleasure, and free time. sometimes i'd rather
do sweet (blank) all than strive for success. but i also know that the more sucessful i am the more oppurtunities i will have later in life.
_____________con'd @ 5.2
Doug 04.26.07 5.2 (1)
Hi Trevor,
Are you a Canadian eh? I once aspired to be a professional hockey player. The closest I got was a 2 day try out with the junior team on which Bobby Orr played. Even at your age, if you've followed hockey you will know of Bobby Orr.
The problem I see with aspiring to be a hockey player is that there are not enough positions to go around and the shortage generates conflict. Aspiring to win, to be first, the best or achieving any other type of preeminence you can think of generates even more conflict for there are even fewer first place positions. I think the greatest source of conflict in our lives is the goal to get more money for there is definitely not enough of that to go around. There could be if we only needed money to survive but we use it in our efforts to fill the void in our lives and for that there will never be enough for just one of us.
Trying to fill the void in any and all ways is the source of conflict in our existence. When I see the continuum of conflict that characterizes our existence I have no difficulty concluding the unnatural activity of trying to fill the void is dominant our lives. Success for me would be the elimination of all conflict. That should be our only goal. The only way to do this is with the natural activity of reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. No one in all humanity has our capacities. In "reaching out..." there will be no competition, no conflict, just unconditional cooperation.
Aspiring to anything less than unconditional cooperation is to diminish life. So young man, don't settle for lesser successes that might bring future "opportunities". Reach out now to the limits of your capacities, to others and to God and the "sum of (your) experiences (will equal) life."
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Doug 04.27.06 1.4 (1)
To put it as politely as I can Nick, you impregnated me this morning and I've been in labor pains all day trying to deliver triplets. Is there any way you can restrict to one the number of ideas you send swimming up the channel to my mind?
Nick wrote:
The creation of the void free of imagination suggested by Simone Weil is the result of intentional conscious action which is not not just automatic reaction. Rather than reacting to the void,, the goal is to experience it.
I don't like to assume what thoughts are in your mind. However, because we are almost unified in our ideas here, I am going to suggest when I say reaction you are thinking I mean the void is the little rubber hammer the Doctor uses to hit the patellar tendon that makes our lower leg jump. This is not the meaning I wish to convey. I want you to understand my reaction is an "intentional conscious action". My absolutely restrictive reaction is a conscious effort to fill the void with unnatural activity and my ideal reaction is a conscious effort to engage in natural activity.
You and I and Simone are united in our desire to free the void of imagination. I would just like to have imagination expanded to include the ideas of unreal, imaginary, unnatural activity. Unfortunately, if you insist on "experiencing" the void I am afraid this is where we part company for a bit. Frankly, I do not want to experience the void; and the best way to minimize its effect is to reach out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Now if you want to think of filling the void with the consequences of "reaching out..." I will go along with that, but I am going to continue focusing on "reaching out..." and think of the void as little as possible.
Nick wrote:
Could you give me an example of what you mean by "more meaningful. How do you discriminate between meaningless and meaningful?
I would really like to quit now but I have to deliver the differentiation between meaningless and meaningful because you asked. I can't define these words for you but I hope I can tell you how to define them for yourself. I have to start by stating I believe trying to fill the void is a life devoid of meaning while reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God is a life full of meaning. You will have to take my word for this until you actually do the experiment.
Now, start from where you are with your specific blend of activities and "reach out..." a bit toward the limits of your capacities, learn something new. Reach out to another, begin to repair a broken relationship or help someone. Finally, reach out to God what ever you think that is even if it is just a possibility beyond humanity. From all reports, you will somehow feel better than you did prior to "reaching out..." You will then say to yourself, "This might mean something" and you will thus have added a sense of meaning to your life. Repeat the process and your life will become more meaningful. If you keep "reaching out..." you will reach a point where your life is full of meaning. To complete the experiment go back to your starting point and try to fill the void more and thus "reach out..." less than you are now. You will sense a loss of meaning. If you repeat this process until you reach the limit, your life will be meaningless.
I thought delivering the last triplet was going to be a chore because the first time I read your story and your last three paragraphs I couldn't make sense of them. After reading them a second time however, all I wanted to say to you is, I WANT TO BE "THE BLACK SHEEP".
What I take from your story is that humanity is the magician who controls, manipulates and eventually "request(s) from (us our) flesh and skins". That is exactly what I say the fabric of humanity can do to us but with a significant difference. I suggest the fabric of humanity is the collective of our individual fabrics and that if we sense we are being restricted by the fabric of humanity it is because we are allowing it to restrict us. By changing the restrictions in our individual fabrics we can change the restrictions of humanity. As I see it your
Nick wrote:
movement towards individuality is the psychological movement towards consciousness and more specifically consciousness of self leading to "know thyself."
is my reaching out to the limits of our capacities. The "faith, love and hope" and all the other "rewards of the ideal reaction to the void" are mere hints of what they could be were our existence not dominated by the unreal, imaginary unnatural activities of trying to fill the void.
| Nick wrote: |
| True Individuality is the return to our origin. |
I say our origin is our first single cell that immediately began reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. However, when born into a fabric of existence dominated by trying to fill the void, reaching out is stifled and we lose our individuality. The only way to regain that individuality is to return to our origin, an existence of reaching out the the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Nick, are we not now almost speaking the same dialect.
My apologies to anyone besides Nick who read this lengthy post. He made me do it.
________________con'd @ 1.5
Nick_W 04.27.06 1.5 (1)
*warning* Nick inserted all his Simone Weil quotes I didn't find helpful.
Got ya thinking on this stuff eh Doug
We may be similar but I don't think you appreciate yet the perspective I'm coming from.
Doug wrote:
My absolutely restrictive reaction is a conscious effort to fill the void with unnatural activity and my ideal reaction is a conscious effort to engage in natural activity.
If Plato's cave analogy, the Magician and the sheep, the Buddhist parable of the Burning House etc., are all correct, they indicate that we are asleep to reality. If this is true, what other standard for determining natural and unnatural reactions other than preconditioning is possible. There can be nothing objective about the distinction. In short, I believe you are assuming consciousness to be where it does not exist. Without it everything moves in circles and cycles giving only the illusion of progress.
The best part for me about what you call natural reactions is that it tests our will by not going with the flow. It is one thing to talk natural reactions and another thing for them to happen. Anyone that has fought the great battle of "ten pounds" knows how forcefully they hang on to our anatomy regardless of our "natural" inclination to shed them.
Doug wrote:
You and I and Simone are united in our desire to free the void of imagination. I would just like to have imagination expanded to include the ideas of unreal, imaginary, unnatural activity. Unfortunately, if you insist on "experiencing" the void I am afraid this is where we part company for a bit. Frankly, I do not want to experience the void; and the best way to minimize its effect is to reach out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Now if you want to think of filling the void with the consequences of "reaching out..." I will go along with that, but I am going to continue focusing on "reaching out..." and think of the void as little as possible.
Just to let you know, I believe Simone Weil, though passing on at 34 years of age, to be the most extraordinary and brilliant female thinker with a public reputation of the twentieth century. All the pictures of philosophers on the ILP banner are men. The one woman I know equal to them all is Simone.
Even though I know of her ideas from my own path of esoteric Christianity, I use her partially to let some of the students here be aware of her for the purpose of writing new papers which professors always enjoy reading as opposed to the same recycled stuff. In this way I don't only provide a few "Az" but contribute to her growing respect in the academic community though she is beyond classification.
Why do I stress experiencing the void? Consider what she means by what I quoted above:
quote:
"Grace fills empty spaces, but it can only enter where there is a void to receive it We must continually suspend the work of the imagination in filling the void within ourselves."
"In no matter what circumstances, if the imagination is stopped from pouring itself out, we have a void (the poor in spirit). In no matter what circumstances... imagination can fill the void. This is why the average human beings can become prisoners, slaves, prostitutes, and pass thru no matter what suffering without being purified."
"That is why we fly from the inner void, since God might steal into it. It is not the pursuit of pleasure and the aversion for effort which causes sin, but fear of God. We know that we cannot see him face to face without dying, and we do not want to die."
-- Gravity and Grace
Of course we don't want to experience the void. It threatens what we value as our life. Natural and unnatural is still just reactions from within Plato's cave. She is asserting what is asserted in all the great traditions, that we must awaken from this condition. This is what the Black Sheep begins to do. He begins to see that all these reactions have no meaning in the human sense but are defined only by cultural standards of morals and ethics.
Awakening means the experience of higher conscious reason which means connecting to something higher than our sleep and the more spiritual/conscious level. But this is not easy
Quote:
How can we distinguish the imaginary from the real in the spiritual realm? We must prefer real hell to an imaginary paradise. –Simone Weil (Gravity and Grace, p. 47)
Quote:
To love truth means to endure the void and, as a result, to accept death. Truth is on the side of death. –Simone Weil (Gravity and Grace, p. 11)
To know the truth and be free necessarily implies the acceptance of death because, in truth, we are not alive in the way we think, and we must surrender this illusion of our own autonomous will and die to this illusion. The experience of reality can be "hell." It is much easier to imagine hearts and flowers.
So it becomes a question of our goal. Do we want the experience of truth or the self importance from the belief that we are "doing" something in the objective human sense.
If the goal is "truth," it means IMO experiencing the void.
Quote:
"All sins are attempts to fill voids." Simone Weil
From this perspective both what we consider natural and unnatural reactions are just reactions in accordance with man's "sleep."
So how to endure the void? She advises "Attention"which is a very old idea, virtually forgotten in the spiritual sense, but extremely valuable for those who have a serious need for the experience of higher meaning. She wrote in part on "attention:"
Quote:
"Attention consists of suspending our thought, leaving it detached, empty and ready to be penetrated by the object. It means holding in our minds, within reach of this thought, but on a lower level and not in contact with it, the diverse knowledge we have acquired which we are forced to make use of. Above all our thought should be empty, waiting, not seeking anything, but ready to receive in its naked truth the object which is to penetrate it."
"Absolute unmixed attention is prayer.
I won't comment on this since I wouldn't want to hurt someone else that may feel something from it that is beyond words and comments.
Doug wrote:
What I take from your story is that humanity is the magician who controls, manipulates and eventually "request(s) from (us our) flesh and skins".
Actually it is mother nature that is the magician. Our life force and a quality of materiality within us necessary for the acquisition of consciousness is instead consumed through our attachment to earthly matters in the context of our psychological attachment to the duality of right and wrong. It is humanity as a whole that is the sheep and oblivious to the objective human condition..
Doug wrote:
is my reaching out to the limits of our capacities. The "faith, love and hope" and all the other "rewards of the ideal reaction to the void" are mere hints of what they could be were our existence not dominated by the unreal, imaginary unnatural activities of trying to fill the void.
There is nothing wrong in trying to do good things and be natural. However, if one desires the experience of higher meaning itself in the context of "awakening," it requires developing the humility to "receive" with the goal of awakening rather than stretch from a state of sleep.
Doug wrote:
I say our origin is our first single cell that immediately began reaching out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. However, when born into a fabric of existence dominated by trying to fill the void, reaching out is stifled and we lose our individuality. The only way to regain that individuality is to return to our origin, an existence of reaching out the the limits of our capacities, to others and to God. Nick, are we not now almost speaking the same dialect.
But man is dual natured. The physical body arose from the earth and returns in the cycle of dust to dust. However, there is also a spiritual seed that descended from a higher realm. It is this that can mature and return to its origin much like the acorn matures into an oak. The difference is that the spiritual maturation is conscious and as such while the acorn's maturation is natural and mechanical in accordance with the laws of nature.
_____________con'd @ 1.6
Doug 04.28.06 1.6 (1)
Nick wrote:
Got ya thinking on this stuff eh Doug
Actually Nick, I quit thinking about what you were saying and started thinking about what you are doing. Please don't feel offended. It has been happening for years and always happens to me when I become overwhelmed with quotes , images, analogies and mountains of words.
We really must use words with great discrimination. We need words to communicate our ideas but they can also be used as an addict uses drugs. They can be used to build huge momunents to intellect we can only admire, or tiny houses of understanding we can live in. Words can be used to create cooperation or to generate conflict. We can use words to reach out to the limits of our capacities, to others and to God, or in our efforts to fill the void.
When I use words to present my philosophy I want readers to feel an 'acorn' drop into their mind not an oak tree drop on their head. I want to use my words to explain the continuum of conflict that characterizes our fabric of existence and how to eliminate it from the 'weave'. What are you trying to do with your words?
________________con'd @ 1.7
Nick_W 04.28.06 1.7 (1)
Doug,
This is a philosophy board. As such I hope to meet those that have thought about these things a bit deeper. Are we exchanging on thoughts or poetry? These are different forms of exchange. Believe me I am a great appreciator of the arts.
I value profound ideas. On my own path of esoteric Christianity there are some of the finest most profound minds I've come into contact with. It is a struggle for me often to keep with their flow. They dwarf my intellect but I enjoy it because I can learn and feel things I could not learn anywhere else. So I guess I'm more used to the attempt to try and include a certain complex subtlety into thoughtful expression.
We couldn't communicate but that is OK too. You are more the poet which is fine. Many profound concepts have been expressed through poetry by the great masters No harm no foul.
_____________con'd @ 1.8
Kriswest 04.28.06 6.1 (1)
I understand your use of void here I believe I do anyway. I don't see it though. A fabric of humanity yes, That I can see. Void no, The energy that is us, fills or rather bridges and infiltrates any open space Too much energy to leave a space in such a fabric. Energy flows it tends to flow into voids. Equate energy to liquid. Liquid like energy follows the path of least resistance.
This energy in us, the electric energy pulses that are us, will change as death occurs it doesn't stop, it changes Or leaves our body to go to somewhere or something else. Physics proves that energy once started does not cease it changes. There is a formula for it I can't recall it though.
So even should death occur that human energy still is around the fabric. It is not in the human form as we know it though. Our body is filled with energy, this is proven. It has been proven that energy changes form.
I surmise if staying with the fabric of humanity that the changed energy still is in some form or another in the fabric or in the space where the voids are, therefore no void.
Because as I stated earlier it will follow the path of least resistance, if no longer trapped in a physical body. The question is how cohesive is this energy. Pretty cohesive I would think. consider radio or Television waves. How is it that the signal which is flowing around comes out in a cohesive coherent unit? It is after all just energy. Now think on this, if we mere humans are at the stage where we can control this lowliest form of energy. How about energies do we not know or are only now tapping into?
Not just man made energies but natural energies. Nick and Doug are I think both interestingly quite close together two pieces not yet fitting, but oh so close. Yet the question still remains what are we? What is our status in the universe and beyond?
_____________con'd @ 6.2
Doug 04.28.06 6.2 (1)
Kriswest, I am glad to see you back to posting. I enjoyed our exchanges on other threads and I hope you return to mine. If you do, before you respond repeat several times, "Doug is simple, Doug is simple". On second thought perhaps that should be,"Doug is not complex". As I told Nick, think acorn not oak tree.
I use the word "void" to convey the fact there is no answer to the last "why?" That is it! Nothing more! Imagine all the knowledge we have is presented on a page that is expanding into the unknown. If you look at the center of that page you will find this little patch of white emptiness where the answer to the last why should be.
In a moment of pure fantasy I imagine God at the final stages of creation wondering how to motivate us. After a bit of 'head' scratching I see God saying, "Ah ha. I've allowed them to question. If I leave out the answer to the last why, that will keep them going forever. Unless of course they don't discover the "ideal" way to react to this missing piece of information. Then they will self-destruct. Man, I hope they figure it out. Creation will have been such a waste if they don't."
"The void" is not part of my "fabric" analogy. The only connection between the two is that the "void" keeps us 'weaving'. If you need to have something in the spaces think "spirit" as in "bonds". I kept the analogy simple. I didn't want it to grow into and 'oak tree'.
_____________con'd @ 6.3
Kriswest 04.28.06 6.3 (1)
Thanks for the welcome, business has been busy. LOL I thought it was simple, well simple compared to some of the brainbusters here. If it carries nothing but $50 words I tend to tune out more then tune in. $20 words $10 words and nickel and dime words work best to fully communicate further.
Alright Acorn. That the question is asked, means the answer is there. That man has not self destructed yet, and is making progress means we are at least moving towards that answer in some degree.
I think it is difficult to be simple when dissecting ideas and beliefs. where lies the line of simple vs. complicated I do not know your back ground except that you are spiritual if not religous. I consider myself very spritual. yet my spiritualness has no religous boundries, no philosophic boundries. Let me try to explain something.
I am an artist, I create 3 dimensional pieces that combine natural and manmade. I can carve from wood, stone or clay a bust bearing a very remarkable likeness of you if not identical, such is my talent. I can not do so on paper. I do not translate 2 dimensional at all I can take photos of you or drawings and make you 3 D I can not look at you or photo of you and draw you. I stink at painting or drawing.
My art is never of humans or animals anyway unless It is a part of the overall piece.
My thoughts are stuck in multidimensions. flattening those suckers out, is hard. Acorning is darn hard. I respect those that can do the acorn or see one or two and make sense. Cause I in noway can do that easyly.I can be dense as dirt. This I consider a weakness in my intelligence level.
I see your fabric analogy in at least a 3 dimensional thought or picture.
can we dissect it to smaller pieces so that it does not appear whole? I ask this permission out of respect. I read your beautiful and moving poem, that too I see as 3D to keep me ,keeping it simple, it might be better for communicating to dissect into pieces. A piece is small and simple.
In your analogy you reference god and humanity seperate, yet one, Correct or incorrect? Lets start with this one if you don't mind. Or if you do pick a place you wish to start with.
_______________con'd @ 6.4
Doug 04.28.06 6.4 (1)
Kriswest, in all sincerity and in the truest sense of the word you are an angel. It is 10 am where I live. The sun is shining and my mother loves to garden but at 90 she sometimes needs help deciding what to do. She is number 1 in my life. Your post is number 2. Thus I won't sit at my computer when I can be 'sitting' with her. As much as I would like to respond to you now I hope you don't mind if I tend the beautiful 'garden' you have planted, later in the day when I can give it my undivided attention. Later.
_____________con'd @ 6.5
Kriswest 04.29.06 6.5 (1)
I blush, and curtsey, I hold no part of angelic features. I do what I do and say what I say because I am. I am, I love I am, It sits right and has no pompousity no self ingratiating attitude.
I fumble for words when complimented. It staggers the soul to be praised for what is right and feels good. I am held a demon as often as angelic. I only care or hurt to be a demon, when someone I truly love calls me such. But when a stranger that knows me not, calls me by such an honorific title as angel, I feel humble and obliged, and I feel that I must point out under such circumstances as these that what you see is not the whole me. Angels may guard me but, I assure, I am not one of that crowd. My guess is, that my dear guardians have turned totally gray and a bit touched in the head. But, you do honor me and I truly thank you.
thank you Doug
_______________con'd @ 6.6
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